INTERVIEW WITH Sam Coyle (she/her) - Director of Avocado Toast the series and Hazy Little Thing Sam talks with Heidi Lynch about her sources of inspiration, what she has learned as a filmmaker, and how she likes to collaborate with her cast and crew on set.
Heidi Lynch: Hi Sam.
Sam Coyle: Hi Heidi.
HL: This feels very professional and like important to be talking to you today, which feels funny because I talked to you all the time, but but it's fun too, to veer from like friendship crush to talent crush. And my first question is about Avocado Toast the series obviously. It’s been about five and a half months since we released our baby into the world. So from this vantage point, looking back, what is the one moment either on screen or a part of the process that you feel the most proud of?
SC: I mean, honestly, just the feat itself, like the whole thing in its entirety coming together. I think I feel really proud. But also the friendships and connections that were made. So it was a really great experience to meet new people and create a bond and something that has longevity. So but the project in particular, I mean just the whole thing. I think we all worked our asses off and tirelessly and I still see little snippets on Instagram for a promotion and I'm just like, “Oh, it's so beautiful”. And I'm just really proud of how it all came together.
HL: Yeah. Me too, definitely. Me too. Do you feel like either while you're working on something as a director or after the fact, do you feel like you learn from the characters and do you think there's anything you learned from a character in Avocado Toast?
SC: Yeah, I mean, I tend to learn a lot by reading scripts. So in the beginning process I definitely see a lot of myself in characters or learn something new. I think actually [learned] more from the process of the making of it. But I learned a lot about the vulnerability of sharing your story and seeing what you and Perrie went through to share that and express that, and then connect with other people to bring their experiences into it. So I definitely learned a lot through that process.
HL: Yeah, I think that was one of the most important things to me too. I've been following this photographer named Georgie Wileman for a while and she had this quote I read yesterday where she said that the chance of giving somebody validation to feel seen was the only thing that was giving her purpose during a hard time. And I was like, yeah, that is so interesting, especially in this field where we work in so many different ways, you know, and you sometimes on your projects, you're writing and directing and producing, and sometimes you're just hired and it's a very different beast, which brings me to Hazy Little Thing. We are very fortunate to both have our health and I'm very hashtag grateful, but it was a little soul crushing to release Avocado Toast into the world during a global pandemic. When we just wanted to have a big screening party and celebrate this hard work we'd done. And then we had all these amazing festivals to go to and it turned online and we made the best of it. But you sort of had that double because you also released your first feature film right around the same time. What was, you know, what has been the best online experience with Hazy [Little Thing].
SC: I mean, we sold the film because of the pandemic and I don't think that that would have happened. So that was a huge asset that it was before it was even released. We sold it and for a super-indie, you know. We made this for very little money and it was just a passion project to be able to kind of show my worth as a director was the reason for doing it in a big way and creating art. But yeah, to sell it was a massive plus through Canadian Film Festival set that up. That was our premiere festival. That was really, really great. I had the fortunate experience to be in Calgary actually when it was in the Calgary Film Festival. I was just visiting family in the end of summer. I feel very grateful for that experience. It was a limited audience everybody's wearing masks socially distanced, but with 25 people in the audience, I felt so fulfilled because I heard how people were experiencing the film and it made me so happy. Whereas when you're sitting at home and people are texting you, ‘Oh, cool, nice film’, ‘great film’, ‘loved it, blah, blah, blah’. You don't feel that same connection. You know? And I think I just felt very fortunate that I got to experience that in a minuscule way, not a sold-out cinema. I did detract that question to make it about being in person. But I mean, it was the best thing about online.
HL: Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. And you and Erin [Carter], you wore many hats on that film like Perrie and I did on Avocado Toast. What have you always been good at collaborating under duress? It's just, it's such a wonderful skill. And as a director, it's so interesting because there are directors that I've worked with before who command a room in a very different way, in a way where people are intimidated either by their reputation or by their energy. But what's interesting that I noticed with working with you is that you are so open to collaboration with everybody on the team. And for me personally, anyways, it makes me feel so safe to throw any ideas out, but it also makes me trust you a hundred percent and it makes me follow your lead in such a different way than what I'm used to. So, yeah, I just, have you always been good at collaborating? Is it something you actively need to work at?
SC: No, I think it comes very naturally. I think I actually struggle more in like the dominating and only my idea wins. I just think that everybody has such a unique perspective on the world and if you do trust people, they flourish. So understanding that, and, you know, as I've come up, like I'm still learning so much about the filmmaking process. But I just rely heavily on my collaborators because that's my cinematographer knows more about their field than I do. I have my ideas and then I put them out, listen to theirs. And then it is about that collaboration of merging getting what I want out of what they're suggesting. If it's yes, then go with it. Why wouldn't you want to try to make it better? You know? So I definitely always want to listen for the better idea and if it's mine or if it's somebody else's. But I don't think one way of thinking is the right way. And because the filmmaking process is [collaborative] so you need so many people. Like you definitely have what you want out of it and you have kind of your guideline. And it always goes back to story for me, is this serving the story? And if it's not, then throw it away and if it is, then let's use it and, and build on it.
HL: And so you and I have both entered this industry through acting and then veered into other careers. And I guess from the director working with an actor standpoint some directors that I've worked with before, mostly in theatre, have said that like 90% of the job is casting. For me as an actor, and then learning everything behind the scenes, I just don't think that's true. I mean, you can't, you can't force a connection that's not happening. Yes. But watching you in pre-production and seeing how many relationships you're managing with people, I'm like, well, I don't think it's all casting, but this whole concept of an ‘it’ factor, the ‘it’ factor. Do you know ‘it’ when you see it and what do you think ‘it’ is when an actor has ‘it’?
SC: Yeah, I think, you know, I teach directing at George Brown film program. So I was just doing like an acting workshop with them. And so I was talking through a little bit of this and I call it the ‘it’ factor for me, is essence. What is that actor's essence. And generally you can tell when they first walk in, you know, you really get a sense. And I say like in the casting process, again, just be open to surprises. Maybe it's not the way that you expected it. And if you go in with, it needs to be this way, it's quite limiting and you don't allow for creativity and exploration through somebody else's perspective on it. Like sometimes you hear a line, you know, we've read it so many times and, you know, I was helping you guys story edit and stuff, and it's like, I had those lines in my head. And then when you see a fresh take on that line, that's so exciting, you know. So there's elements of like, just being open to whoever's in the room and letting them like really take on that character and see the new character in a new light. And I think that that's kind of, you know, I feel really strongly about the casting of Jordan. He was one character that I was like, he just has that essence. And, you know, I think we all kind of felt that and wanted to give him more lines and wanted to bolster his character because Alexander Nunez, the actor himself really brought something unique to that character. It was in the world of what we wanted, but he really made it his own and it, it popped and came alive. And you know, now he's a bigger part in season two in a writer. And you know, he really, really shone in that way.
HL: Absolutely. I remember that one day in the office setting where it was so cool, I was just producing that day with my little clipboard in the back, but you just felt the whole room change like you and cam got so excited, you felt play happen. I think that's what's going on. That beautiful thing that happens when you're on a set where it feels like everyone develops a communal consciousness and it's above your head and you're all just like, and Alex was having the most fun and became a genius opening for that episode that you directed. And just so funny. And I'm so grateful because he's become a great collaborator of mine and we're developing another show together. But yeah he is so fun. Okay. So in this industry, we're so validated for our successes and that's what everyone talks about. There's no like publicist for your failures but we learn and grow so much from the crappy parts of it. So I guess I'm curious, is there one failure in your experience that has taught you the most failure with quotations too.
SC: Yeah. I mean, you know, I really, I don't, I have so many answers to the question it's really hard, you know, because I came from an actor background, I put myself through film school and I worked really, really hard on understanding the process, but a lot of my first films are my student films that I invested my serving money into to be able to create and understand the world a little bit better. So I have a ton of failures I have. But I do think it does make you stronger. I really do say if you're, if everybody says good job, you don't learn anything about yourself. We see people like that in powers of privilege and positions of power, who everybody just says yes to and they don't really grow and they don't change and they're not versatile. But you know, I haven't had a lot of success either. So it comes with the thing of that idea of wanting to be validated in the process and being like, am I any good at this? So now things are starting to happen, but yeah, it was many, many years of being like, is this any good and not having an outside perspective. It’s really hard when you're making short films, they play four or five festivals. They're not getting picked up, but it's really hot. It's so oversaturated, there's a massive market. You just really need to believe in the core of your artist and do it for yourself. You know, that's kind of what I've learned throughout that process. Biggest failure. Oh gosh, no, I don't know.
HL: I think that's good. I think that there, you know, yeah, you would just have to learn from them and keep moving forward. You can't fall on them obviously. So I think it's good that they're not top of mind. Yeah.
SC: I will say I've learned from other people's failures. I've like been on a bunch of sets in the learning process. And when I was wanting to become a director, I would see directors kind of in the novice earlier stages do just atrocious things on set and really lose the trust of their cast and crew. And, you know, I'm 18 on some of those things are helping produce, blah, blah, blah. I was like, that's what I don't want to do. And I worked really hard at knowing how to command trust of my cast and crew and, and keep a solid team together and believe in them so that they believe in me. Yeah.
HL: Yeah. Where did you go to film school? I didn't know.
SC: Oh, I didn't go to film school.
HL: Oh, Oh, I understand. Sorry. Yes. You just created your own. And as much as we do go it alone as filmmakers, there are really beautiful and interesting programs around that help. And I know you're in one currently a film lab that I believe is focused on like helping filmmakers get funding.